Real Robo Manifesto Size Comparisons

Void Scar Miniatures Taurus APC next to RAFM HG conversion and Abrams

Shocked to find it has been six years since I posted the size comparison shots for what I call my Real Robo Manifesto here and here for the 10/12mm – 1/144th scale Scopedog and Abrams.

These pictures are showing my 15mm – 1/100th scale models.

I placed both vehicles on bases to make their ground be approximately the same. This is one good reason for basing vehicles to match them to figures, but I don't like basing vehicles.

Void Scar Miniatures Taurus APC next to RAFM HG conversion and Abrams

It bears repeating that wargame models are not built to a scale, but made to a size.

This distorts the proportions of objects, which leads to erroneous assumptions about their size. The classic example is the picture of a Sherman tank with infantry next to it in real life versus wargame models.

M4 with men of US 60th Infantry Regiment, Belgium, 9 Sep 1944. Photographer; Spangle

And here's an official picture from Warlord Games. Because figures need to be based, one can see how this starts to throw off the relationship between the size of the tank and the men.

Not helped by the fact that wargame soldiers are broader to make them more robust when being handled see here.

Mr Dave Taylor

And for even better pictures comparing 1/48th scale Tamiya Sherman and a properly proportioned infantry figure and a 1/56/28mm Bolt Action Sherman and soldier see here.

So, the Taurus APC was a spontaneous impulse purchase bought at Salute as a possible conversion to serve as a cybertank from my World of Drei series. More about this in another post.

Now back to making trees for my forest.

Mecha Suit Size Comparisons

This is how Dream Pod 9 Gears compare with Takara 1/144th scale VOTOMS. They're pretty similar height, but the Gears are bulkier, which is probably down to being cast in metal.

The Dream Pod 9 models are really nice, and relatively easily customized allowing one to tweak the pose.

With my camera out, I took the opportunity to take a bunch of pictures of my collection of my miniatures from GZG, Dream Pod 9, and RAFM mecha suits.

Everything I've recently painted with a RAFM Gear for comparison and Object 295.

A Work in Progress: One Step Back

As I said last time, I found that I had bent the barrel and I would replace it with one made out of tubes, which is easier to say than do, as it took far longer than I thought it would. I also discovered that the missile mounting bracket was also easily bent and therefore needed replacing too.

A task that required me to disassemble the model, though it allowed me to rebuild both brackets.

And while I was at it, I rebuilt the bracket mounting the barrel as it stood too high for the look I wanted. Oh, and I then cut and repositioned the left leg to alter the pose.

Next it was Milliputting Time! Think Hammer time, but less flashy.

And so now here she is, in all her glory, but still missing a flashy aerial to match the look of Reeman's command Scopedog. And I need to drill out the missile pod too.

And because size matters, here's a comparison shot to finish.

New Dog standing between my original conversion and Ferretti's Buster conversion, with two 15mm Clear Horizon Epsilon squad exoskeleton figures.

And that's all for now..

RoboTech KickStarter

   

Left to Right: Macross, Southern Cross, Genesis Climber Mospeada mecha.

I'm not going to cover the whole debacle of Harmony Gold, Palladium and or the fractious relationship Robotech from Harmony Gold had with BattleTech by FASA. You can read more about the recent furore about the Robotech KickStarter here on Sitzkrieg's site, which is well worth following if you're a mecha and Star Trek fan, and who isn't?

But, if you've been reading this blog for anytime, or have delved into the depths of my archive, you will know that I have  a thing about sizes of things.  Just check out my pieces comparing sizes of models here. 

So, I wanted to add some observations on the problems of pleasing a fanbase, and trying to square the circle, to run out a well used cliché.

Size matters. The above illustration is from here.

The Robotech TV series was divided into three parts: The Macross Saga; The Masters; and The New Generation. Alternative titles being the First, Second and Third Robotech Wars. Harmony Gold put their show together by adapting three separate Japanese anime series.

The first was The Super Dimension Fortress Macross, alternative title Hyper Dimensional Fortress Macross. Macross is a big deal in Japan, probably second only to Gundam.

The second show used was Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross, which was originally the third in the Super Dimension series. And by series think, theme.

The third show used to create Robotech was Genesis Climber MOSPEADA. My Japanese friends tell me that Mospeada was a Japlish portmanteau word, for most speed or more speed.

So the size of each shows mecha differed considerably, not only because of the choices made by Harmony Gold, but because the original Japanese creators didn't have in mind some unified 'verse for wargamers to move models of the mecha around, while making pew-pew noises.

For general information, the Japanese really didn't take into account the market outside of Japan back in the eighties. I'm not fully convinced they do now, but things have got better.

NB: Super Dimension Century Orguss, which was the second official thematic sequel to Super Dimension series, Harmony Gold was unable to use due to issues over rights, see here for more details.
  

Size Comparison from Above

Back here I presented a manifesto for RealRobo.

In the comments, I was asked to take a shot from above. The days in London have largely been dull and overcast, but when the sun did come out I took the opportunity to take this shot.

Task completed.
   

Size Comparison: Real Robo Manifesto!

 

Click on this to see the full size 1764 x 1091 image.

  

After I posted my last blog it raised a comment about sizes, with one person coming out with the informed opinion that tracked or wheeled vehicles were just smaller, period. Walking vehicles are, and would always be too large to ever be practical.

This is one of those areas where peoples opinions are informed by a wide range of media, where the representation of walking vehicles goes from the sublime to the extreme. Gundam mobile suits are at the sublime end of the largeness, while the Gunbuster suit is at the mind blowing extreme end.

However, there is Real Robo.

Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team combat armour suits occupy the very big end of the Real Robo spectrum. The suits in Fang of the Sun Dougram are the size most people assume combat armour is. Dougram provided a large number of designs that were used in the BattleTech game, as did Super Dimension Fortress Macross aka Robotech. While Fang of the Sun Dougram remains one of my favourite anime shows, what inspired me to consider walking vehicles in a more serious light was Armored Trooper VOTOMS, which also has a TV Trope page.

The arguments all boil down to size. And size matters.

In the real world, smaller is better.

I can see how all of the above makes Real Robo a confusing hot mess of different concepts. I really do.

Especially, given that people watch the anime shows or play games with miniatures. The trouble is that wargame models are not to a scale, but made to a size. This distorts the proportions, and again leads to erroneous assumptions about the size of combat armour suits; Heavy Gear being one example of how the models are sculpted for the look on the table.

Fortunately, being crazy about Real Robo and VOTOMS, I have scale models by Takara of both the VOTOMS heroes combat armour suit, called a ScopeDog, and an Abrams tank. As you can see, the ScopeDog is taller than the tank. But, not by as much as one might have been led to believe.

To me, this is what I mean by Real Robo.

So, to be clear, Bad Dog is a  hard SF take on Real Robo. It takes the ideas of Armored Troopers VOTOMS, and turns up the hardness to eleven.

BTW: As promised, I took two pictures to show the difference when taking pictures in Hi-Res versus stacked images. The picture at the top was taken using the Hi-Res mode of my camera, the picture below was made using multiple exposures stacked together to form one image. Both models are on bases to equalize their heights off the ground.

Click on this to see the full size 909 x 603 image.

    

Some More Size Comparisons

Didn't realize that two of the little Dogs had broken arms, they're that tiny, but you can see it in the picture.

Back here I took some pictures of GZGs not VOTOMS, but I was asked if I could take a picture showing them next to other mecha.  Hopefully, people will now be able to see the relative sizes of GZG Dogs, Heavy Gear and BattleTech mechs.

NB: If you compare the old pictures of the little Dogs to this new one the increase in quality between my old camera and my new one is quite remarkable.
 

RAFM Mammoth Strider Size Comparison

  

I'll admit that I've been searching the internet for RAFM Heavy Gear miniatures.  What can I say, wargaming and making models is my hobby.  I found a Mammoth Strider for sale on eBay that had a very small pictures and an incomplete description.

Questioning the retailer produced no useful data, but after checking out the picture and discussing it with friends, yay for friends, I decided that on the balance of evidence it was likely to be an old RAFM Mammoth.  So I took a punt, despite it costing the same as the new smaller version from Dream Pod 9.

It arrived today and the photograph is proof that this thing is humongous, and it weighs one pound 12 ounces, or 795 grams for those more familiar with metric measurements.  It's missing one of the small rotary cannons and the footpad, both of which I'll fabricate replacements for in due course.  First things first, strip the paint off in a nice bath of Nitromors.
  

Size Comparison RAFM versus Blitz

Click on the picture to see a larger image.

As requested a size comparison of a RAFM Gear next to Blitz models and with added 1/100th and 1/144th scale models of the Abrams for real world comparison.

From this quick shot my gut feeling that the current Dream Pod 9 Ammons and Moab will make the basis for very nice opposition squad for my RAFM Gears.  My command Meggido-Kadesh-Bashan kitbash, which I jokingly call a Mekabashan, and my Aphek-Bashan kitbash would also work, and looking at the picture I think the Accos could be used as drones.
   

Latest Russian Walker Conversion

The plastic Ammon from the Dream Pod 9 KickStarter is for me the most disappointing Caprice model.  Primarily because it doesn't match the size of the resin and white-metal version they produce.  As you can see from the picture the legs of the resin and white-metal model are larger.

If one can accept the resulting lower height, from using the legs from the standard walkers, then the model makes up very nicely.  As is my wont, I ended up converting it to make it a bit different, but not sure I like the arrangement of the weapons on their makeshift turret.

I'm not convinced I can live with the conversion because I prefer the taller model, as it looks slightly more elegant to my eye.  As a result I went and ordered another Ammon, and a few other bits & pieces from Dream Pod 9 (though annoyingly I forgot to order extra machine guns I needed, sigh).

However, I must finish off the painting and put the custom decals I've got on to finish it off.

Heavy Gear Mods

After fixing my RAFM Hunter Commando I was looking at my Hunter conversion I made to represent Sergeant Espera's APE suit, from my second novel, and thought I can do better than that.  Such is the burden of being self-critical.  Below is the original conversion.

I think my rearranging of the weapons loadout and replacing the boxy rifle looks better.  While it's a pain to rebuild models when they're in the process of being painted, I wasn't going to be happy with it until I did.
  

Further Size Comparisons

 

Last year I posted a piece comparing the size of Dream Pod 9 Gears/Mechs against a scale real world vehicle.  And then another piece looking at the size of the Visigoth tank next to an Abrams.

This time I'm comparing a RAFM era 1/87th scale Hunter Command with a 1/144th scale Hunter conversion next to 15mm–1/100th scale–Abrams and a 1/144th scale Abrams with a Clear Horizon Epsilon 15mm miniature and a MechWarrior Dark Age 10mm Grey Death Legion power armour figure.

What does this mean?

I've been bitten by the accidental purchase of six RAFM era Gears.  I say accidental because I put a low bid on them not expecting to win, but I did: hence accidental.  Now I have the urge to acquire more RAFM Gears because they're lovely and shiny, must catch them all...

Realistically, if I can get hold of a couple of Southern Gears then I'll probably be satisfied as it will allow me to have heroic scale stand-in models of my character's mechs from my novels.  OTOH though, the temptation to go full-on 15mm for my Bad Dog verse project is strong because it's so much easier to get figures in different poses.

What you're hearing is the sound of the wargamers lament.
  

Size Comparison Part Two

 

Back here I did a size comparison of Heavy Gear walkers with some modern tanks to 1/144th scale.  The comparison was most illuminating and it begged a question, how would a 15mm tank look with the walkers, and would I be better off making my Bad Dog project in 15mm?

I just made up a Visigoth Khan tank made by Dream Pod 9 for their Heavy Gear game.

So what we have here are a 10mm scale Abrams with a 15mm Abrams from Battlefront Miniatures next to a Dream Pod 9 Visigoth Khan to show, as my friend David Barrow said, it's way too large to be a 1/144th scale tank.  As you can see it's enormous, so large that it might make a good giant cybertank, except that the proportions aren't quite right and it would be a lot of work to convert.

The Acco snuck in front for comparison as to whether it's suitable for a manned walker if it were treated as a 1/100th scale 15mm wargame model?

This only brings home a point I always make that 15mm is a size and 1/100th is a scale, and while one may use the former to work with the latter (15mm figures with 1/100th scale kits), the figures are not to a scale.  For a start wargame figures are stylized caricatures of real people.  Don't get me wrong, they're full of character, which true scale figures are not, but what that amounts to is larger hands and head etc. that are out of proportion to real life.

TL;DR: What is good for wargaming, figures one can relate too, is not necessarily accurate to a fixed scale.

Why am I going on about this?  Simple really, my Bad Dog conversions of 12mm Heavy Gear's look to be more suitable to represent 15mm combat armour suits.  And as for the Accos, they'll manned by very short men and women pilots.

Edit: Except the cockpits are too small for 15mm, so I'm back to Bad Dog in 12mm and perhaps doing Heavy Gear is 15mm.  That's called two for the price of one–or so I keep telling myself.
  

Size Comparisons

In the comments of a previous post Sitzkreig asked, "Will the accos be manned as well or autonomous drones in your world?"

I hadn't given it any thought because as things stand at the moment I've not written any scenes with anything other than the large walker I showcased here.   Pokhodnaya Boyevaya Platforma or Object 295 is the enemy machine that one of my characters encounters in my second novel.  But obviously nothing operates in isolation and I have been giving some consideration to its role and how it fits within a force.

That force will have platoon equivalents with some heavy support.  Object 295 is one of two support elements that will be attached to a formation containing smaller walkers.  I've previewed the command variant and in the picture above you can see in the background what I've made up to represent another walker variant.  My plan is to have a command walker with four of the new variants and three Accos attached to each:  for a total of seventeen walkers with two heavy walkers attached.

However, that doesn't answer the question of, are the Accos manned or drones?  I pondered that question for a while, and thought about how much easier it would be to source 15mm figures, rather than using the limited range of poses available in 10mm.  So I decided to do a size comparison with real tanks to the same scale: a Sheridan, an M60 and a Russian prototype Object 640 – a T80U variant with an extra road wheel that was never put into production.

Comparing the Accos to the Sheridan, I think it is large enough to be a manned walker and makes it more plausible that the larger walkers have multiple crew members.  I think three, consisting of a driver, gunner and commander.  This is interesting as it means that in my future universe the Russians are not relying on expert system AIs to run everything.  That makes the Accos a bit unusual because they aren't large enough for three crew.  And then I had another thought, as one does, since they're so small they're probably are air-droppable by parachute.

And that is how one does world building without really trying.
   

Heavy Gear Jager versus Takara 1/144th VOTOMS: Size Comparison

       

The Jager is shorter, but bulkier than the Takara Rabid-Dog and Blood-Dog.

Well my parcel arrive from Dream Pod 9.  I'd ordered some Utopian faction Golems, and a support Armiger with drones, a Southern Jager, and assorted weapons.  Everything but the Jager and weapons went under the Xmas tree as a present, but was so excited I had to start assembling the Jager, and thought it would be good to show a size comparison picture of the Jager with my Takara microscale F144 VOTOMS.

Primed white and given a black wash.

What I find attractive about the Heavy Gear models is the number of different guns and missile packs that one can choose from.  While I was working on this I realized what my nagging doubts were really all about when I posted here.  My VOTOMS are lovely, but they will always be VOTOMS and what I want to do is build a force based on my Bad Dog universe background, and I think the Dream Pod 9 Heavy Gear mechs will make a good platform for me to customize models to represent the vehicles in my stories.

I know this is incredibly sad – author making models of the mechs in her own novels, but at least I can point any cover artist in the right direction about what a CASE-2X looks like.  Having had this epiphany I can now move on and pretend I'm somewhat normal and not totally obsessed with the wild imaginations of my mind.
   

VOTOMS in 10mm

These are Takara F/144 micro scale VOTOMS. Oh these are even lovelier than the GZG Hound Dogs. I got quite a large haul of these recently, sixteen boxes of these beauties in fact. These are an inveterate modifier's dream, as they come in lots of tiny-teeny pieces, which saves cutting them up and all. I can see that this may not have been their best selling point when they were first released though. When was that? Back in 2006, which means that I was quite lucky to find these on eBay. The chances of getting more is slim in the short term. In the long term, things come to those who wait.

The models are in a soft plastic, like most gashapons in fact, and as a result they bend a bit. The trick is to put some wire into them, which stiffens them up considerably. Once glued together they then become remarkably rigid. So here is a  shot with two 10mm MechWarrior infantry, a  GZG Hound Dog, and a BattleTech Atlas for size comparison.

I want to go back and tweak some of the models a bit more. Adding at least one bazooka rocket launcher weapon to one of the Scopedogs. Then modifying a couple of the rifles into snub guns too, along with making variants versions of the missile launchers. I also have three more of the blue Rabidly Dog mechs to make, and one more Blood Sucker mech ( the one with the red antennae) to make up. I've also got one Tortoise and three Diving Beetles along with assorted vehicles and accessories to play with too.

Furthermore, acquiring these has made me want to start playing OHMU Warmachine, a game that I wrote, but that I never thought I would want to start playing again.

However, these little mechs are just perfect for OHMU, and I've been inspired to peruse the old second edition files I have. OHMU was always written to be used with the miniatures that one could get hold of, as even back in the day, I didn't imagine ever marketing a range of specific OHMU miniatures. Not unsurprisingly, we got a lot of feedback saying that the game sucked because we hadn't market any miniatures for the game. Yes, we did draw up concept art, but that was for inspiration, and more of an aspirational thing for how the mecha of the world of OHMU looked.

Live and learn.

Anyway, I've also had a rules writer's epiphany and a moment of clarity about how to re-write OHMU Warmachine that came fully formed into my head. I'm trying to fight the urge to get over excited, and too involved in a project that will suck away all my time for very little reward though.

OHMU Warmachine didn't sell well, got reviews that said it was a mediocre to poor game, and generally the project dragged me down into the pit of despair that led to me losing interest in my hobby. Oh, and here is a nice conceit for all you VOTOMS fans.

    

Heroic 6mm

I've decided that there is something heroic about 6mm in today's wargaming hobby.  Quite simply 6mm is no longer 6mm. The dread size creep that has plagued the 25mm mainstream end of the hobby for a number of years, so that we are now seeing 28mm figures that are described as large 25mm.  Then in turn these became the standard "28mm is the new 25mm", which are now in turn being replaced by 32mm figures standard of "32mm is the new 28mm".

In some ways this is a product of the expansion of the wargame market and the popularity of 25mm, which of course was driven by Airfix plastic toy soldiers that were nominally 20mm, though actually averaging around 22mm.

I'm not going to rehash the old do we measure to the eyes versus to the top of the head arguments, because quite frankly they are ad hoc post justifications for the state of the hobby, and are just opinions about what is, or should be the standards that should be used.

Instead I will say that I think it is a reflection on the economic growth of the hobby and competition to produce the best selling range that one can, which is no bad thing.

Therefore I now want to point back to the title of this piece. I think that 6mm is becoming more popular, and the evidence is in the size creep that we have seen over the last 25 years or so, ever since Herioc's & Ros brought out their figure ranges in the then newish 6mm. They of course were less than 6mm tall, averaging around 5.5mm, and newer ranges increase the size and bulk of the figure, thereby producing nicer looking, and therefore better selling toy soldiers. Hurrah!

However, we are now at the stage where the market leaders are producing figures that are 8mm tall (sometimes taller) that are marketed under 6mm branding. Originally the Ral Partha BattleTech figures were to this Heroic 6mm size, though later on they were joined/replaced by true 6mm figures, becasue AFAICT there was a drive to be compatible with GHQ, who are steadfast standouts for 6mm figures being to a scale, and therefore approximately 6mm tall.

Recently though, Iron Wind Miniatures have started producing figures of battle armoured troops for BattleTech that are 10mm tor taller, but nominally falling into the 10/12mm size range.  New standard infantry is being produce to match the larger figures, and so inevitably we have nominal 6mm figures that will be around 10mm.

For me this leaves me with one obvious choice. Go 10mm, as 10mm is clearly the new 6mm and get on the size creep bandwagon at the head of the curve, rather than be left behind with true 6mm. After all 10mm figures have more bulk, look better and paint up well.

So welcome to the world of Heroic 6mm, using 10mm toy soldiers to play games with.